SEC Response to Pac-10 Questions
by chowder on Apr 9, 2009 9:49 PM CDT
64 comments
Guys, take a look at this interesting dialogue with our Pac-10 colleagues from the Fanposts that you might have missed! --WEA
I come to Tiger Territory because I am curious. Spending much of my time at www.californiagoldenblogs.com I feel I have become overwhelmed with certain left coast viewpoints. I thought I’d move east for some outside opinions. I am not here to talk trash, and I’m hoping for responses with more depth than S-E-C … S-E-C… Rah-rah-rah! After reviewing some of the SEC websites, I chose Auburn because you seem like a good bunch and are fairly level-headed. The following are some general questions I have about Pac-10 football, if you have an opinion or response, I’d love to hear it. Again, I’m not here to plug the Pac-10, or get into an internet fight, but rather to obtain an outside opinion. I just want to gage the general sentiment of the public over yonder, and don’t need thorough arguments supported by a series of statistics. If you are curious, my loyalties are with Cal. Also, if have questions you want to ask a left coaster feel free to ask. Oddly enough, I just read your new front page material and you already covered some of my questions.
East Coast Bias – I’d guess about a quarter of the regulars at Cal’s site fully believe in East Coast bias, particularly when it comes to recruiting rankings. The basic premise claims simple demographics (78% of the country’s population living in the eastern and central time zones) and geography (west coast time delay) leads to greater coverage and publicity for schools in the eastern and central time zones. The greater publicity and coverage leads to better preseason rankings, which contributes to a season long trend of higher than earned rankings, as the teams are more likely to face other ranks teams benefitting from the same east coast bias. Basically, extra coverage leads to higher ranking which leads to higher rankings throughout the conference, at the end of the season it becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. Do you believe there is some truth to the idea of East Coast bias, or do we just complain a lot?
Scheduling – I believe one of the strengths of the Pac-10 is their aggression in scheduling. I acknowledge that a school’s strength of schedule is a bit based on luck. The OOC games are generally set up a few years in advance, and team strength varies from year to year. For example, Cal played Michigan St. in 2002 and 2008, in 2002 Michigan St. was ranked #15, in 2008 they finished in the top 25, every year in between Mich. St. was a nobody and finished in the lower half of the Big-10, the fact they were a quality opponent the years we played them was luck. Generally, with exception to Notre Dame USCum only plays BCS conference teams. Cal has played Tennessee twice, Maryland, and Michigan St. with Colorado and Ohio St. on the schedule in the coming years. Oregon, Oregon St. UCLA, all have marquee OOC games this season, even Washington which stupidly scheduled LSU ensuring at least one Pac-10 embarrassment, schedules tough opponents. What does the SEC think of Pac-10 scheduling? Do we schedule big games because we have something to prove? Do you not really care what we do, unless it involves the SEC? Is it admirable, and more teams should play tougher games?
Perception of Pac-10 Teams - Without doing research, which Pac-10 schools would you rate as the 5 best over the past 5 years? Yes, I fully realize U$C has been the best.
Jahvid Best – I was recently youtubing while my girlfriend was packing for the airport, and someone made a video where they rank the Top 15 fastest players in college football. Jahvid Best was not on the list http://vimeo.com/2744979 I declared some serious shenanigans, I fully believe Best is the fastest player in college football, and I would think anyone that has seen him in space would acknowledge his speed as well. I also think that Best has the greatest chance to unseat the big 3 of Tebow, McCoy, and Bradford for the Heisman this year, however, I am a Cal homer with a tainted perception. My question, have you heard of Jahvid Best? Do you think if by some fluke Tebow, McCoy, and Bradford all went down with injury early, that he’d be the frontrunner for the Heisman? Doesn’t Best deserve to be on the list of fastest players in college football?
The Mountain West – Much was made of the Mountain West’s 5-2 record against the Pac-10, and deservedly so. Last year the Mountain West had some very good teams (Utah, TCU, BYU), the Pac-10 also had a down year, particularly the bottom half of the conference. The Pac-10 consistently plays the Mountain West because of simple geography, we are very much isolated on the West Coast. Unlike the SEC which has some overlap with the ACC, and Big-10 & 12 schools a modest distance away, our closest BCS conference team is Colorado, which is a two hour flight from the nearest Pac-10 school. My question is, what do you think of the Mountain West? I believe that the football conference hierarchy breaks down as follows Group 1: SEC, ACC, Pac-10, Big-12, Big-10 Group 2: Mountain West, Big East Group 3: Everyone else. Are they a flash in the pan? Are they a legitimate threat to overtake the Big East’s BCS bowl bid? Do the top teams in the league hide the fact that the league lacks depth?
Anyway, that’s all, as I said many times before, I’m just searching for a little outside perspective. Please, indulge me in your viewpoint.
1 recs |
64 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
I’ve heard of Aaron Rogers and Jeff Tedford if that means anything :)
Haven’t heard of Best, but I didn’t seen many (if any) Cal games last year.
I don’t think there’s necessarily an East Coast bias (as can be seen by the constant lovefest for USC), but I can see how the time difference can hurt the Pac-10 considering I usually end up watching an Oregon State vs. Somebody game on TNT at around midnight on Saturday and think to myself “is anyone else watching this”. The CFB media seems more prone to their lovefests with certain teams (USC, OSU, OU, UTx, Mich, ND, etc) and then their flavor of the month teams like Rutgers, Louisville, USF, WVU, etc.
So, if Cal beats a team or two that they are not supposed to early in the year, then they to can be the object of ESPN’s unadulterated gushing! Sorta like last year after UCLA beat UTn.
I, for one, admire the Pac-10 for playing 9 conference games and only three OOC games. That is pretty cool.
Not knowing much about how the teams finished last year or the year before, my perception of the Pac-10 teams rankings are as follows:
USC, Oregon, OSU, Cal, UCLA, ASU, Arizona, Stanford, WSU, Washington.
Good chatting to you. I always love die hard CFB fans, no matter their allegiance (well, unless they are from the school that must not be named). I saw a dude today with a Mississippi State bumper sticker. I just thought “Good for you. Your team sucks, but that doesn’t matter. You fly the flag and show everyone you love your team regardless.”
Tha's a load...
Whew! What a laundry list. I will weigh in with my humble opinion.
I have said that there is coastal bias from both coasts for years. I do not beleive that will ever change.
Yes I agree that “most” Pac-10 schools schedule, out of conference, a stronger list of teams. There are many opinions on this. I feel that the entire conference has “planned” that exact scenario to bolster East Coast media attention. Sort of ties into the first point.
USC, Oregon, Oregon State, California, UCLA. In no particular order after the first Team mentioned.
Never heard of him. Why, if he is that good, where is your schools media priority towards it’s football program and it’s players?
Loved Utah in January. That’s a rivalry thing. Like USCum.
AU tiger in Pac 10 country
My overall perception is pretty favorable of the Pac 10 because generally I can’t seem to escape them on my tv out here in Seattle. Thank God for CBS, as far as I’m concerned. One reason for the so called bias is CBS itself. It is a major network that always plays SEC games. I think that goes a long way in creating a certain perception that the SEC is more dominant even when at times it may not be. I wish there were no cupcakes on our schedule, but usually there is. The argument (which is bunk) is that we have such a tough conference, it doesn’t matter. Every game matters so I wish we only played SEC teams.
My 5 Pac 10 teams USC, Oregon, Oregon State, Arizona State, and Cal.
It goes both ways...
Yes, there is certainly an East Coast bias to the people on the East Coast. However, there is also a bias going on in the West as well as stated by KoolBell. Best is a speed demon, and I will say that it’s quite possible too many western players are looked over for the eastern counter parts. Yet, I am not sure anybody got more play than Reggie Bush, Matt Lineart and Aaron Rogers was everywhere it seemed to me. I’m not saying it bothered me, it just seemed like those guys were all over the place. I think UCLA, USC and Cal get plenty of attention. In fact, I’d say Oregon and Oregon State have decent coverage, though I wish ASU got more media focus. I still remember that Terry Battle and Jake Plumber team foundly that lost that oh so close game way back when to those damned Buckeyes.
One of the biggest problems, and it may only be perception, is that the PAC-10 is not known for defense. You hear about the speed of the SEC, but the fact is, a 4.3 is a 4.3 no matter where you go. Speed is speed no matter where it’s timed. With that said, the SEC is fast on both ends and the defenses fly to the ball as good as any set of schools in the country. I’m not saying the PAC-10 defenses are slow or that they aren’t good, I’m more or less just talking about the perception of the PAC-10 vs. the vaunted SEC. I cannot see the SEC as being overrated though. I mean, in the championship games, the SEC just gets out there and wins over and over again like they did this year with FL over OK. The difference in my opinion was the UF defense. They flew to the ball, and Oklahoma just couldn’t move past the Gator speedsters. Therefore, the SEC gains its reputation with domination on the defensive side of the ball.
Recruiting? Who the hell measures this stuff out? As far as I’ve ever known, USC has had the top recruits for about the past five years in a row. Hell, as far as Auburn is concerned with old Coach Tommy Tubberville, Auburn never had a good recruiting class. I never saw a team with such poor recruits be in the hunt for the SEC year in and year out if you do not include last year. There is certainly a bias when it comes to recruiting, but I don’t think it’s just the West Coast that deals with recruiting bias. Besides, the best way to show who did the best in recruiting is a team’s record for the next four years.
The scheduling deal? SEC schools do that to rest players up and let the fans feel good about beating the crap out of somebody during the course of the season. Basically, they ensure that a team like AU or UGA, or UA, will never go 0-12 or something like that. I think it’s garbage, but that’s the way it is.
Thanks for stopping by!
I’m one of the few (maybe the only) Pac-10 sympathizers on this blog, so my reviews of your conference will generally be favorable. I believe the Pac-10 is the second best conference in the country year-in and year-out (only behind the SEC, natch). So let me get to your points one-by-one:
East Coast Bias: I think it’s a reality, but probably not to the extent that y’all feel it. The reality in my view stems from the fact that most Pac-10 games start at like 10 PM Eastern time, and after a long day of tailgating, boozing, and football watching, most of us are ready to go to bed. So, to answer your question, I believe there is some truth to the idea of east coast bias, but not enough to leave an undefeated Pac-10 team out of the national championship game (/still holding grudges from 2004).
Scheduling: The examples you’ve provided are very impressive when it comes to scheduling. I wish Auburn did more to step up and schedule strong out-of-conference opponents. It seems like every five or so years we play one of the blue bloods of college football (2002 and 2003 vs. USC, 2008 and 2009 vs. WVU), but outside of that, our OOC schedule is usually a big pile of blah. I know other SEC teams have stepped up to the plate when it comes to OOC scheduling, for instance Tennessee has scheduled Cal, UCLA and Miami (before Miami fell of their cliff) this decade, and Georgia has played Oklahoma State, Colorado and Boise State. One of the problems with SEC scheduling is that many teams have a OOC rival on the schedule every year that takes up a spot. Georgia-GT, SCar-Clemson and UF-FSU come to mind.
Perception of Pac-10 Schools: Top five in the past five years, in order: USC, Oregon, Arizona St., Cal, Oregon St. I don’t keep up with the Pac-10 as much as you do, so you may have some problems with my rankings.
Jahvid Best: The name sounds familiar, but since we’re three months removed from watching college football, my knowledge of players outside of the SEC isn’t sharp right now. I can’t watch the video at work, but I’ll take your word for it that he’s a fast guy. I doubt he would be the frontrunner for the Heisman outside of Tebow, McCoy and Bradford, simply because of name recognition. We’ve seen far too often in the past that the national media truly decides the Heisman (see Peyton Manning vs. Charles Woodson in 1997), so in order for him to climb the charts, Lee Corso et al. would need to hype him up big time. I think a dark horse Heisman contender, outside of the big three, is Eric Berry at Tennessee. He is just a raw football player that everybody wants on their team.
The MWC: I think in order for the MWC to sit at the grown-ups table, so to speak, they’ll have to prove a commitment to top-level football year-in and year-out. Utah and BYU certainly walk the walk, but the rest of the conference seems wildly inconsistent. I think they could unseat the Big East in the BCS discussion, but it will take more beat-downs of BCS teams, like the UCLA-BYU game and Utah-Alabama games last year.
Once again, thanks for stopping by! I always love having in-depth football conversations, especially this far from football season. It gets my blood pumping.
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
Wow... Nice list.
Going to make this short and sweet.
East Coast Bias – I do believe that there is one, and it will never change. JD hit the nail right on the head… after all day watching ball, it is very hard to stay up and catch a game on The Versus Network, or Fox Sports. I try to stay up because I love to watch Oregon and Cal both play, and that is about the time I get home from a long day tailgating in Auburn.
Scheduling – I am a huge fan of the fact that the PAC-10 plays a nine game conference schedule, and a couple of OOC games. But my biggest issue is that the PAC-10 needs to sack up and get twelve teams (so does the Big 10). Get twelve teams, get a true conference championship and fit in with the rest of us. I would love if Auburn would get on the scheduling like the PAC-10 does. It seems like the PAC-10 is always in a BCS out of conference game.
Top 5- USC, Cal, Oregon, Arizona St, Oregon St.
Jahvid Best – I am aware of who he is… a stud. Does he deserve to be on the Heisman List? Sure, on the list. I see no way that he can win it, barring injury to the big three. And if the big three happen to succumb to injury, someone from the East Coast will get all of ESPNs attention. ESPN is evil. I swear they are married to Pete Carroll and Bob Stoops.
Mountain West – They are okay, any conference that has a team that beats Bama is alright by me. Do they belong? Not really, but I don’t think that the Big East belongs either. At least they have a conference champion though. In my opinion any conference without a championship game should not be allowed in a BCS Bowl. Yet I am a playoff guy (see latest post).
Thanks for stopping by, you are welcome any time.
If you are a War Damn Eagle, you can War Damn anything.
Pac-10 expansion is actually a subject of great interest out here. Here is a discussion from October (Note: skip the first comment thread, it strays) http://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2008/10/29/649181/carp-s-crazy-thoughts-for
They're after our precious bodily fluids
by chowder on Apr 9, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
SEC
Also had a down year last year, but it takes several in a row for people to note or mention. That is to say, rankings are biased towards historic output, not necessarily readjusted annually to realistic earning potential.
Interesting....
Thanks for stopping by….
For some reason I have never had a great opinion of te PAC 10. At the same time I don’t watch them enough to base solid educated points.
I have watched enough to know a few things…or at least have an opinion on.
1) I love the scheduling….we should adopt the same.
2) In general I don’t fear any team from the PAC 10, but could imagine myself being worried if we played USC, Oregon or Cal. I believe the style of play coupled with solid talent would cause problems for anyone.
3) I do know who Best is. He is amazing to watch, but don’t think he will knock the top three down. In fact, I agree that Berry would be the next in line.
4) A bit biased here but I believe the con’s come in this order: SEC, Big 12 and the #3 spot is a fight between the Big 10 and the PAC-10. The MWC should/will over take the Big East in due time.
That is my take. Not in order…not very well written due to lack of time….thanks!
Even a Broken Clock is Right Twice a Day
Thank You and Please Continue
Thanks, I always enjoy some perspective, and thusfar I’ve enjoyed your comments. If anyone else wants to add something, by all means, indulge me.
I don’t have time to write out a decent response at the moment (I’m off work in 15 minutes!!!), but I’ll throw something up tomorrow, and might link your responses over at california golden blogs.
They're after our precious bodily fluids
I've always liked Cal...
Why don’t we make Cal and AU sister schools at least on these blogs? I mean, I realize we could never do that for USC and I don’t think California would like USC much either. Plus, UCLA doesn’t seem too much like AU like the Golden Bears do. AU and California seem a lot alike and I think it would be really cool for us to have a sister school that we pull for every Saturday in the PAC-10 and the California bloggers to have one of the damned East-Coast Bias schools they’re pulling for during the gauntlet of fall games. Besides, Auburn gets slammed by the bias as well. This could be something really cool. I for one will pull for California this year every game unless there is the unlikely event they play AU which, will probably never happen.
They will never play?!?! How about in the National Championship Game!!!!!
haha, yeah, you are probably right.
They're after our precious bodily fluids
Am I the only...
one that feels that more specifically its a bias in the Northeast section of the country due to all the sports writers and espn?
I say this because it seems to me like the SEC and other conferences have to prove it on the field where the big 10 (and maybe USC) are given the benefit of the doubt.
Yes i am a homer….
Thanks for thinking we are level headed…. (I say chuckling to myself given the recent top 5 program debate)
Hating Lowder since 1993.
Welcome
Alrighty, I will give my opinions on this stuff too.
1. The Bias. Not sure if it exists or not, I am certainly biased to east coast teams in terms of football. The reasons I think that the SEC is so strong is due to the defense like most of the SEC homers do. Recruiting bias does exist, but it is mainly due to those running the recruiting sites.
2. Scheduling. I think that the reason that the SEC doesn’t/can’t schedule tougher OOC games is due to the physicality of the league. Every SEC game is brutal, even the bottom feeder teams of the SEC will beat the crap out of you and you need every opportunity to rest players they can get. While the Pac 10 has quality teams, they are simply not as physical.
3. My perception of the Pac 10 pretty clear in my comments thus far, they are solid but lack the depth of teams that the SEC has. My top 5 of the past 10 years would be USC, Oregon, Oregon St., Arizona State and Cal and not necessarily in order.
4. Best. I remember seeing him against Tenn last year, I believe he is a ridiculously fast running back that does return duties too correct? If this is the guy, then my answer is no, he will not win the Heisman. If he had a stellar year last year and had a lot of momentum going in, maybe at best. I believe that it would take Cal beating USC and winning the Pac 10 with Best having a hell of year and the top 3 having very down years for him to have a chance. For speed demon backs, I think that Noel Devine will finish higher than Best for the Heisman. All that said, he is fun to watch and I would love to see him running for Auburn.
5. Mountain West replacing the Big East for BCS bid? Not hardly, in fact, I would argue that the Big East has been a better overall conference than the Big 10 and Big 12 for the past couple years, ok maybe not the Big 12 but certainly the Big 10. Utah has been a solid team for the past few years and BYU is traditionally a solid lower end top 25 team and TCu has been a solid team for a couple years. But name another team out Mountain West, I can’t without looking it up.
Overall, my impression of the Pac 10 is low and unreasonably so for no real reason.
Best played Tennessee his freshman year, but he was not the primary back. Instead, he was used on specific gadget plays, designed to get him in space, and hopefully break a big play. Last year he did have a darn good year, he ended up with over 1500 yards 15 touchdowns. He also missed about 2 games due to injury, and had no passing game to prevent what seemed like 9 in the box by the end of the year. He also had over 10 runs of 40 or more yards.
I know its Washington, but when we played them he ran for over 300 yards and was pulled 5:00 minutes into the 3rd. Anyway, enough of being the Best publicity manager.
They're after our precious bodily fluids
Actually, I'm more leery...
…..of Auburn playing a PAC-10 team, than any other conference in the country. I’ve seen a LOT of eastern teams go out west, and get man-handled. Go check out Rose Bowl history, and you can see that the game is pretty lopsided in the PAC-10’s favor! Now sure, we whooped up on Washington State a couple of years ago, but it was an August opener, around 95 degrees, with our typical ridiculous humidity. That heat didn’t work on Southern Cal, back in 2003. Even so, I’d rather see my Tigers play Cal or UCLA, than Tennessee Martin. These cheese-puff non-cons have to go, if you ask me! (A couple more back to back 5-7 seasons like last year, though, and I might change my tune…)
…..I think there’s a certain amount of football xenophobia, no matter where you go. The PAC 10 is basically as far away as you can get from the SEC. And we tend to be a pretty obnoxious bunch.
…..Rightly or wrongly, the PAC-10 and Big-10 officials are seen around these parts, as being football Neanderthals, holding up progress, and generally being card-carrying members of the Flat Earth Society. I know that sounds weird coming from someone in Alabama, but… there you go.
…..Consider how the BCS came into existence. The Sugar, Orange, and Fiesta sold a deal to the Big 8, SEC, ACC, Big East, and got Notre Dame to buy in. Eventually the Rose, PAC-10, and Big 10 caved in, and the BCS was formed. A college football playoff may well have to have similar beginnings, with the two holdouts still playing in their own postseason sandbox for a while.
To be fair, a lot of Western teams go East and get beat down. Check Cal against Tenn in ’06 or Maryland in ’08. Oregon St. with whomever they play in September. Heck, Oregon (the same Oregon that went 10-3 and beat up Oklahoma St.) struggled mightily with Purdue. Purdue!
If you want theories. There is the travel fatigue, but Cal claimed that wasn’t the problem against Maryland this year, rather it was the humidity. Out West we have very little humdity, and going East where you hit a brick wall of air the moment you leave your house, you can’t escape it. And, of course the typical home crowd advantage.
They're after our precious bodily fluids
Thank you for the comments thusfar, and feel free to add your own thoughts.
A couple of general notes: The current Pac-10 commissioner is stepping down, and most of the Pac-10 thinks he did a lousy job at the end of his term. We blame him for having the worst bowl line-up and tv contract of the major conferences, however, I believe part of this is geography and demographics, but we strive for greatness and hope his successor does better.
East Coast Bias – I agree with your assessment of East Coast bias, there is definitely a heirarchy in college football and the national media only follows the top-tier with an occassionally blip from a challenger. I think in the West this is perceived as East-Coast bias because $C is our only representative with the other kings in the eastern or central time zones.
West Coast Time Delay – On a personal note, I completely understand your football fatigue that sets in, and I love that fact that I can wake-up at 10:00/10:30 and catch the second half of a football game from the Big-10/Big-12/etc. it sets the right tone for gameday.
At a conference level, the worst part of our TV contract involves ABC setting and airing the marquee Pac-10 game at 12:30 pm (pacific) specifically to help attract national interest. I hate this because there is little time to tailgate and enjoy football saturday before you have to be at the game, particularly if you go out on Friday night. I’d much prefer a 4:00 pm kickoff (pacific time). Which, I always thought the Pac-10 should institute for their marquee game, back east it could act as a night cap (7:00 pm eastern), while appealing to more West coasters.
Jahvid Best – I am surprised more of you haven’t heard of him, but if I try to think of a heisman candidate outside of Tebow, Bradford, and McCoy from any non-Pac-10 conference, I can only think of Kendall Hunter (who isn’t that good, I fully acknowledge that), and Jimmy Clausen (if Notre Dame becomes good, you know he’ll receive the hype). And much like you not knowing Best, I haven’t heard of Eric Berry, so I guess we all share the same faults.
Pac-10 Teams – I did some math, the following is a total for wins over the past 5 years:
1. USC – 59
2. Cal – 44
3. Oregon – 41
4. Oregon St. – 40
5. Arizona St. – 38
6. UCLA – 33
7. Arizona – 25
8. Washington St. – 22
9. Stanfurd – 19
10. Washington – 12
They're after our precious bodily fluids
A little more context
This is interesting. It’s the number of games played against BCS Opponents, conference or otherwise, including bowl games and ND over 2008-2004, inclusive. The logic is that on average a “Big Six” opponent is going to be stronger than a non-Big Six opponent. I think that is relevant to this discussion for two reasons. One, it speaks to the scheduling habits of the Pac-10, and USC in particular. And I say that as a Cal and Vanderbilt fan. Second, it’s a useful, if rough, measure of how many wins each team has “earned.” I don’t have the time for it, but I’d like to see similar statistics for the SEC.
1. USC – 61. [ed. that is frickin’ ridiculous]
2. AzSt. – 53
T-3. Cal – 51
T-3. Oregon – 51
T-3. Oregon St. – 51
T-3. UCLA – 51.
7. UW – 50.
8. WSU – 49
T-9. Arizona – 48
T-9. Stanford – 48
Interesting...
I don’t think anyone denies an east of the Mississippi bias, but I think any animosity that we east coast teams may harbor for west coast teams might be derived from the Rose Bowl’s limited access to teams from the south.
I like the little pipeline that we’ve seen between the PAC 10 and the SEC this decade, with USC playing both us and Arkansas in a home and home, and with Tennessee playing both Cal and UCLA in series. I even enjoyed that game we had with Washington State in 2006. I’d like to see more of these matchups. The distance between the schools makes it very interesting, and some conferences are going to have to set the example of BCS teams playing other BCS OOC teams on a regular basis. Why not the SEC and Pac 10?
I’m glad Hansen is retiring. He and The Big 10(11)‘s Delaney both seemed like obstructionists to me, potentially sacrificing the growth of the sport in order to preserve their Rose Bowl tie-ins. Although it is commendable that the Pac 10 now plays a 9-game conference schedule, requiring each team to play every other one, I’d still like to see them expand to divisional play because that ’s where I feel the eventual road to a playoff is going to need to be paved.
I’m curious who you might consider adding if indeed the Pac10 would expand.
by War Eagle Atlanta on Apr 9, 2009 12:00 PM CDT reply actions
We’ve talked about Pac-10 expansion a lot, and a different Cal Blogger wrote up this post:
http://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2008/10/29/649181/carp-s-crazy-thoughts-for
the primary schools for possible Pac-10 expansion are BYU, Utah, Colorado, & Boise st. with each having their pro’s and con’s. At the bottom there is a summary of the writer’s findings (in green)
They're after our precious bodily fluids
If...
You guys throw open the doors of expansion again, you get to be pretty choosey who it’ll be, but I’m not sold that it’ll be a defector from another BCS conference, like Colorado. It’ll be the creme de la creme of the WAC or MWC.
Also, I don’t think you can arbitrarily talk about dumping a current school, like a Wazzou or Wazzou State, as you mentioned. We SEC’ers like to talk about trading Vandy for someone every now and then, but they’re welcome to stay as long as they want. They haven’t been competitive in the last century, but they’re still our little brother.
As a matter of fact, I can’t recall a single example of a school getting booted from a conference EVER. If it did happen, I’m sure it was in the first half of the last century.
by War Eagle Atlanta on Apr 10, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
PAC 10 expansion
BYU would seem like a logical fit for the PAC 10 and i could see Colorado jumping ship if they thought they’d be able to compete better in the Pac 10. back in the 90s when they were dominating it was because they were getting all the top level talent out of LA…going to the Pac 10 would give them a better chance to recruit. plus i’d just like to see what sort of effect a BCS team jumping conferences might have. would Arkansas leave the SEC for the Big 12? would the SEC then replace Arkansas with a school from the Big East (Louisville) or the ACC (Clemson, FSU, etc…). i don’t know, i just think there’s some fun that could be created with a little chaos and then that chaos might just get us all rolling towards that playoff……but probably not.
by suicidewatch on Apr 10, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
With exception to the SEC’s championship game, haven’t conference championship games tended to be a failure? They are great at promoting the teams involved, but ticket sales have been off and on for the Big-12, and the ACC is just dreadful. With the Pac-10 stretching over 1,500 miles, combined with a non-rabid fanbase and a disinterested greater national audience, the financial challenges would be too great for the game to be successful.
I always thought that the SEC benefited from a relatively small geographic area with a large metropolitan city (Atlanta) near the center of its territory. Add in the passionate fans, and doable driving time and you would end up with a successful championship game. Furthermore, during the pregame hype for the Alabama – Clemson game, I remember hearing how Atlanta has either the largest or second largest concentration of alum’s from every SEC school.
Basically, I don’t think the Pac-10 is centralized enough to make a championship game viable, unless they base it in L.A. and USC goes every year. As a point of reference, with exception to Stanfurd, the L.A. schools are the next closest, and are about a 5-7 hour car ride.
The only other conference I believe can have a successful championship game is the Big -10, if Chicago is the host city.
They're after our precious bodily fluids
they could play it in San Fran @ the 49ers stadium. seems like the most centralized location i can think of.
by suicidewatch on Apr 10, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
candlestick park is a horrible venue. To the point that the U.S. isn’t even considering it for potential a 2018 world cup bid. They want a venue in the Bay Area, but are thinking of either Cal’s Memorial Stadium, the Oakland Collisseum (Raiders), and Stanfurd stadium.
it still doesn’t address the fact if either of the Arizona schools or Washington schools get in they would have a 12 hour drive, or a 200 dollar flight. We don’t have the passion of the SEC, fans out here aren’t willing to do that in large numbers.
They're after our precious bodily fluids
Conference Championship Games
Are important because if we ever get a playoff involving more than four teams, they’ll serve as a defacto ‘first-round’ of the playoff.
Money and exposure play no small part either…
The ACC has trouble because they can’t find the center of gravity for their conference—is it Charlotte, Jacksonville, Tampa? It’s definitely not in Tamps, especially since they’ve never had the Miami v. FSU matchup they always envisioned.
Does the Big 12 sell their game in KC out every year?
by War Eagle Atlanta on Apr 10, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I like Conf. Championship Games for one reason:
From a macro perspective, I think it helps get 2 teams into lucrative BCS bowls. This has helped both the SEC and Big12, imo. In doing so, it also adds a 4th OOC game which could either pad the record or increase national exposure (read: inflate rankings).
The ACC, however, has not shown that promise yet. Of course, Miami and FSU have been down. If they were to rise and VaTech stayed high, we could see 2 ACC teams in BCS bowls.
Heaps and Hinder...come on down!
I think like 65% of Colorado fans over at The Ralphie Report were in favor of defecting and moving to the Pac10. I think it’s because of 3 things:
- The Southwest Conference bullies (i.e., nearly all Oklahoma and Texas schools) are DOMINATING the Big12. I think a school from the Big12N might never ever win another conference title. Seriously. Colorado can’t recruit in Texas very well anymore. Osborne predicted this even during Nebraska’s heyday. Switching over to the Pac10 at least gives them some shot at being competitive.
- Colorado gets a lot of guys from CA. Being in the Pac10 could only help that.
- Colorado almost joined the Pac10 in the early 90’s.
If I had my choice, it would be Colorado and Utah. Several other fans like Utah and BYU instead, as it brings a rivalry and both schools are good at basketball and football. Our commish has several short term projects to improve upon (TV contracts, bowl tie ins) before tackling this issue.
You might be right: no school has been giving the boot. They might have been encouraged to leave, but they’ve never gotten the outright heave ho. Wazzou right now is in peril. They’re football team is atrocious, their stud basketball coach just broke their heart for UVa, and they’re located in Pulman, WA which is the least desirable locale in the Pac10. The last fact is what saves schools like Washington and Cal (before Tedford): Seattle and Berkeley are desirable locations and the universities are well rounded academically. What further hurts Wazzou is the fact that all 4 CA schools are good or are improving and Oregon is a bonafide Top 25 team. Strong Pac10 football teams need to win the recruiting battle in CA. The future doesn’t look good for Wazzou.
Heaps and Hinder...come on down!
I stand corrected...
Temple played football???
:-)
by War Eagle Atlanta on Apr 10, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I also blogged on Cal needing to establish an OOC rivalry game. I didn’t mention Auburn, but in retrospect I probably should have.
http://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2008/10/27/647546/carp-s-crazy-thoughts-for
Heaps and Hinder...come on down!
Tiger Nation
First, chowder – great post!
I’m another Cal Blogger here (and author of this particular Pac10 expansion link thats been posted by chowder)…I joined Track ’Em awhile back because I enjoyed the pieces that you guys put out. Plus, as an American how can I not enjoy the War Eagle phenomenon? That and Tim Hudson is bad a$$ – especially for his willingness to buzz Vlad Guerero in his first AL at bat.
I, unfortunately, have never been to Alabama, although I’ve been to Tampa and New Orleans so I’ve at least been to the South. I do, however, have a deep fondness for Deep South Sports’ Bama Fan of the Week which I repost to our Cal community weekly (with proper acknowledgements of course!). Lots of sex workers and tweakers…good stuff!
I must add to the ECB talk: The Pac10 has effectively taken the pins out of the grenade and sat on it:
- rediculous nighttime schedules (we even call them our games of the week!)
- bowl tie ins (no SEC match ups & we have typically inferior matchups like Pac10 # 2 vs Big 12 # 3/4
- no conference championship game (everyone in the Pac10 loves round robin scheduling, but we cannot ever get 2 teams into the BCS games without playing like the big boys)
Hopefully the new commish does wonders, although he’s a Women’s Tennis Pro guy who was an All-American tennis player at Harvard (don’t laugh!).
As chowder introduced in words, Jahvid Best would be, in my opinion, getting all kinds of Heisman hype right now if he played for any decent SEC team. danzig, a fellow Cal blogger and highlight video wiz, put this highlight reel together:
http://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2009/1/7/711260/jahvid-best-2008-highlight
Does he look fast? He won the California state title in 100 m, finishing with a 10.31 in the 100 m:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqYP3p5afRQ
I think Florida offered him a scholly late in the process without even seeing him in person. Given his lower level of high school competition, I think that’s a pretty good compliment.
Thanks for being friendly to a few Cal fans! Yes, we got those hippies out of the trees and our new student athlete center is under construction!
Heaps and Hinder...come on down!
Holy Smokes!!!
Watching that has got me so excited!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is so friggin fast! I’ve seen him play, but when you put all of it together like that it just blows you away. I can’t wait until the season begins……. Thank you so much for sharing. I really needed that after laying off 10% of my work force today :(
Even a Broken Clock is Right Twice a Day
no problem. He was a 4 star recruit (Rivals/Scout). How he (and Marshawn Lynch) were 4 stars and not 5 stars is beyond me. If Best played ball in say Mobile, AL, he might have been a top 10 recruit in the nation. He then would have had all of the SEC/Texas/OU love and would have been sky high. It’s reasons like this why the “stars” system and other such rankings of high school football players is absolutely absurd. Prestigious programs are in the South, Rivals/Scout readers are in the South, therefore they rank these players higher than others, subscriptions go up, and the cycle repeats.
Heaps and Hinder...come on down!
what a list
Javid Best is easily one of the fastest players in college football.
About him being top runner for heisman not sure. I think he would have to put up just a little bit better numbers for that, but nonetheless he is very fast and a very talented player.
Scheduling- I admire the scheduling and think all schools should play teams playing up to there standards and not cupcake games to pad the stats. That proves nothing in my opinion.
agreed. for him to win at Cal, I think it needs to be a 12-0 season (including victories over USC and Oregon). Backing into the Rose Bowl (say, 8-1 in conference while USC goes 7-2 and the team that also beat USC loses >1 game) would not get it done.
For Cal to do this, Best will have to be healthy and thus will certainly get his numbers. If Cal goes 12-0 and Best doesn’t win it, I for one will be disappointed irregardless of the Big 3’s outcome.
Heaps and Hinder...come on down!
It's great to have you guys on TET
With the exception of Auburn, i’m a huge Cal fan. Have family and grew up in the Albany area and have been to every Cal game east of the Mississippi River (except for the Maryland game, thank God) since Cal vs MSU. Good news about the new Pac-10 commish…maybe he’ll be open to a tournament style system rather than than the BS BCS.
In the past five years:
1. USC (unfortunately)
2. Cal
3. Oregon (Bye coach)
4. Oregon State (Somehow they always win in Corvallis)
5. Arizona State/UCLA – Tie only because Erickson seemed to let go of his team last year.
Of course Jahvid Best is a beast. I can’t wait to see what he’ll do the next two seasons! By the way whatever happened to Montgomery? Anyway, speed on offensive side of the ball is incredible, and defense last year seemed much better than years past (with the exception of certain secondary machines i.e. Mixon, Hampton, and Hughes), but Zack Follett will be sorely missed!
James Montgomery (along with a DB Brandon Jones) transferred to Wazzou. He sat out last year, which means he’ll be eligible to play this year. Given their performance last season, I’d think Montgomery is a shoe-in for the starting rb position. I just don’t know how effective he’ll be in their new spread hurry-up offense.
They're after our precious bodily fluids
Best
No one asked me but…
I think Jahvid Best is a heck of a player. He’s definitely one to watch for this season. However, he’s not the fastest player in college football. That honor goes to Jeffrey Demps. Above, carp mentioned that Best clocked a 10.31 in the 100 meters in high school; Demps set the national high school record with a 10.01 in the 100 meters.
Again, Best is a fantastic back and would start on any team in the nation. But the fastest in the nation as chowder guessed he was? No.
Thanks for the cross pollenation....
Its nice to see a fellow CFB fan come with some opinions that aren’t laced with arrogance or hate….a huge drawback in the SEC.
East Coast Bias? — Its definitely there but I think its more of a money/ratings bias than a bias against the West Coast teams. There are so many RABID fans of the SEC, Big 10 that eat, drink, sleep CFB that I think the media wants to feed that beast as much as possible for revenue generation. You really have to be exceptional or have an exceptional player, like Best, to get some media attention if you aren’t a member of the Grand Old Party (Notre Dame, USC, Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Texas, Oklahoma and Alabama) Generally speaking, the perception is that CFB fan out west is not hardcore, ie. they have a life, and therefore are not going to get the coverage that you do in the east. Its unfair but its something we are ultra-familiar with unless we have a real good team.
I’m not real familiar with Best but he’s really going to have to be spectacular to escape the glare of whoever USC will be pimping for the Heisman.
I am impressed with the PAC-10’s scheduling of OOC teams and I wish the SEC would do the same. My general opinion on the reason why the PAC-10 has an impressive OOC schedule though is because the bottom half of your conference is usually pretty weak, however it seems that any team can beat another at any given time. You rarely see a Vanderbilt or Kentucky beat a MNC contender in the SEC and yet a Stanford or Oregon St can beat USC. That tells you that the talent is there in the conference. Year in and year out they generally have 2 stong teams, 3-4 average teams and then 4-5 very weak teams that have trouble going .500. After USC, its a revolving carousel in the PAC-10 with the strength of teams. They really seem to have a hard time building on success. My general opinion on the strength of the programs annually is this. 1. USC 2. Oregon 3. Cal 4/5. ASU and OSU
I hate having cream puffs on the schedule, especially when you are paying SEC prices for season tickets. But in a world where 2 losses pretty much precludes you from playing for the MNC, you won’t see too much aggressive OOC scheduling from the SEC on a regular basis. For that very reason,I don’t think the SEC will ever schedule the PAC-10 on a regular basis although I wish they would. I have been saying for years we need to lock up an ongoing schedule with another conference, preferably the Big 10, but until we get a playoff I don’t think that will happen.
On what day did the Lord create Bear Bryant and couldn't he have rested on that day too?
That's why...
We need a rule in CFB requiring the scheduling of at least two BCS OOC teams every season for all BCS teams. Then we get not only this cross-pollenation, which is great for the game, but a sense of fairness and equality for all teams. Some teams go out of their way to have a strong OOC schedule, others do not. It would be a great equalizer.
by War Eagle Atlanta on Apr 10, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions
What do the average SEC ticket prices cost? I know last year, the cheapest non-student tix were around $45, with the homecoming game $10 more and the Big Game (rivalry) being a lot more.
They're after our precious bodily fluids
Face Value...
On a ticket is meaningless. It’s like Par Value on a stock certificate. These things trade for much more than the amount printed on it. To even be able to buy a season ticket from the university, you have to donate copius sums to the athletic department.
I’ll answer it this way. On the secondary market (scalper/ebay/craigslist) for a huge matchup between conference foes (like Auburn-LSU) you can expect to pay $200 a seat form decent seats)
by War Eagle Atlanta on Apr 10, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Out here in Colorado we get more SEC football then we do PAC 10 because of CBS and ESPN horrible decision to air BIG 10 and ACC games. Because of that there is a obvious bias to the east coast. Being this far west and getting only a couple PAC 10 games a week is awful marketing. I did get to watch a few cal game and I have to say your new uniforms are among the best around. I watched closely to watch Darian Hagan Jr, and Jahvid Best is legit and I dont care what anybody says about speed PAC 10 is the fastest conference out there. Now how you use that speed is another thing, PAC 10 teams play with a lot of track guys but that doesn’t always translate to football speed. I think Oregon and Cal will challenge USC next year for the tittle and UCLA is a year away from being right up there.
1990 National Champions- Colorado Buffalo's
1913,1957,1983,1993,2004 National Champs- Auburn Tigers
thanks for asking
East Coast Bias: i think when it comes to pre-season rankings you can really call it traditional powerhouse bias…this is why teams like Michigan, Notre Dame, and Ohio State historically find themselves ranked for higher in the polls. but yeah the East Coast bias totally exists because that’s where all the news and media centers are.
Perception of Pac-10 Teams: i think most SEC fans think the pac 10 teams are soft “other than USC”, but if you look at which league turns out the most quality NFL players you’d have to say that the Pac 10 is right behind the SEC. if i was being objective then i’d say top to bottom that the Pac 10 is the 2nd best conference in college football…mostly because the Big 12 is too top heavy with Texas and Oklahoma and then after that there is a huge dropoff. with the Pac 10 you’ve got 1 top heavy team and then about 7 other schools with quality football programs. if i was to just blinding rank the Pac 10’s best teams over the past 5 years without really looking at records they would be:
1. USC
2. Oregon
3. Cal
4. Oregon State
5. Arizona State
Best: i’ve only seen him play twice, he seems pretty f’ing fast…still when you are thinking about the FASTEST players in college football, the SEC is loaded with guys who run track and all you ever hear about anymore is SEC speed…so who knows where Best really ranks. i’d take him over most of the backs currently in our league.
Scheduling: the Pac-10 overall does a far better job of scheduling out of conferense games than the SEC. where most SEC teams will load up on Conferense USA and Sun Belt cupcakes, the Pac 10 seems much more willing to take on another team that might actually beat one of their schools, partly because geographically your cupcakes are a little bit tougher and partly because the SEC doesn’t have to travel, so they don’t. also the fact that everyone in the PAC 10 plays one another is pretty cool.
The Mountain West i think the Mountain West’s record against the Pac 10 is more proof that they should be included in the BCS than it says anything about the weakness of the Pac 10. as much as the SEC loves to talk about being the best, we actually have a losing record against the Big East over the last 4 or 5 years.
FRONT PAGE!!!! AWESOME
I just wanted to thank you for having good responses, please more if you have them. I may not agree with everything you have to say, but it is refreshing to hear other people’s thoughts. After I linked this over at CGB, I was urged to post it other places as well. I did, and I have to say that thusfar you have been the most welcoming blog with the greatest response (which may be due to you being the first) and have the best responses.
Check this one I got from Penn St. Territory
One more thing
We’ll kick all your asses in volleyball.
?!?!?!?
They're after our precious bodily fluids
i posted this over at my own blog A Lifetime of Defeats and hopefully some people with way in there as well. this was a really cool idea.
by suicidewatch on Apr 10, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Not sure who posted that over on
BSD, but it is just a nod to PSU’s success in the sport vs. the traditional west coast volleyball powerhouses (Winning back to back titles In Womens’ Volleyball and the Men’s and Women’s titles in 2008. Not too shabby).
I think the poster was just having fun – most of the commentators on BSD had fun with your post. In fact I followed your link over here and enjoyed the perspectives here as well. Good work.
"You are a tenacious little monkey!"
A Note about East Coast Bias
Courtesy of a different Cal Blogger.
http://www.fangsbites.com/2009/02/espn-announces-west-coast-sportscenter.html
ESPN set up shop in L.A. Will the coverage change at all?
They're after our precious bodily fluids
it's possible
…but not likely. they’ll just talk about the Dodgers, Lakers, 49ers, & USC…things they already talk about anyways.
by suicidewatch on Apr 10, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
you are probably right, but I’d hope that being on a Pacific time schedule, they might watch more Pac-10 games, and pick-up on the buzz of western schools.
This year will be the first in a long time when two schools (Cal & Oregon) have legitimate, albeit outside, shots of knocking USC off. Much like 2007 when both Cal & Oregon were poised mid-season to win the conference outright. Unfortunately, Cal lost two successive heartbreakers and then proceeded to give up on the season, and Oregon lost Dennis Dixon to injury.
They're after our precious bodily fluids
Interesting
This is a pretty cool idea. These boards can normally be reduced to Auburn vs. Alabama trolls babbling/bitching about nothing. You have actually shown that internet forums can have a useful purpose…Now I’ll get on with it, but keep in mind that I am a bit biased.
Regarding strength of schedule: I respect the fact that the PAC-10 teams generally go out of their way in order to schedule legit OOC games. However, I have always felt that y’alls OOC games were the games where you guys gained the most respect, due to many of the in conference teams being so weak. I don’t say that to start be disrespectful, it’s just been my opinion over the years.
Regarding BEST: The name rings a bell, but I know nothing about him. Then again, I am more interested in the teams than I am in the players, and therefore I don’t pay much attention to the player talk.
Regarding top 5 PAC-10 schools: Not to be a prick, but I don’t even know all of the PAC-10 teams. However, with my limited knowledge I would include the following: ASU, Cal, Oregon, Oregon St.
Regarding conferences: I give very little attention to teams that are outside of Tier 1. Anytime that the tier 2 teams beat a tier 1 team, I chalk it up to the tier 2 team being really fired up to play, while the tier 1 team is bored/lethargic concerning the game. Also, tier 2 teams tend to stay healthy because they have less injuries throughout the season secondary to weaker opponents. I rank the Tier one conferences in the following order: SEC, Big 12, Big 10, PAC-10, ACC. I don’t believe that the Big East should have a BCS bowl bid.
The media bias between the two coasts: If USC is erased from this discussion, then I would agree that the East coast receives a lot more attention. However, ESPN’s constant babble about USC more than makes up for all other SEC babble.
I lived out west for a little while, and it amazed me at how disinterested you guys are in regards to college football. I remember when during my first football season out west, a coworker asked me if I wanted to be in the office “football pool”. I agreed, paid my money, and was later AMAZED to learn that the “football pool” was a “pro-football pool”. My response was literally “Who in the hell watches pro-football”? Apparently everybody out west watches the NFL. There was very little interest in college football amongst the people that I was around. I think that may have something to do with why ESPN favors the south so much. We give them ratings, and ratings makes them money.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
