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Is There a Santa Claus?

Mcclover_medium

Yes, says former Auburn football player Stanley McClover.

(AP Photo/Brian Myrick, File)

 

 

     War Eagle, everybody. I suppose by now we should be used to media attacks against the Auburn athletic program. This week, while we should be focusing on spring drills, we're busy fending off criticism generated from an HBO "Real Sports" episode that aired last night. It was painful to watch, but we did know it was coming. The premise of the show, as well as much of the plot was revealed over a month ago. For those late to the party, former Auburn football players Stanley McClover, Troy Reddick, Chaz Ramsey and Raven Gray indicated for the HBO cameras that they were paid hundreds or thousands of dollars by Auburn supporters. Like most unsubstantiated claims, there's almost no way to disprove them.

 

     First off, I'd like to begin by saying that I do not know for a fact whether the allegations are true or not. HBO Sports certainly had little in the way of proof offered in their episode. There were no Auburn boosters or coaches named in the accusations. No canceled checks, no car titles. As a whistle-blower, Eric Ramsey was light-years ahead of these four guys and HBO. As much as we hated what Eric had to say, he did have the goods. If these guys want Auburn supporters to take these latest allegations seriously, tell us who the participants were.

 

     While proof of whether or not $500 handshakes exist remains elusive, we can examine the publicly demonstrated character of those around whom this story revolves. Over 30 Auburn players have come out and stated unequivocally that the charges are horse-manure. These names include Ronnie Brown, Carnell Williams, T. J. Jackson, Junior Rosegreen, Carlos Dansby, Quentin Groves, Lee Ziemba, Ryan Pugh, and a host of others. We're still waiting for the avalanche of former players who'll support the accusations. Or even the first one. Anyone? Are there any other Auburn lettermen out there that will cop to this charge?

 

     It is also worth noting that each year NCAA athletes sign statements assuring that they are aware of the rules and have not received any impermissible benefits. Signing such a document, then later admitting to taking cash demonstrates a fundamental lack of ethics by these players. It also calls into question any public statement they might make. In short, they've branded themselves as liars, and have little credibility left.

 

     Of the four accusers, the statements made by Troy Reddick are the most troubling to me. From his own words, it's clear that he was deeply unhappy during his time at Auburn. From what other players have said, Reddick was a quiet one. His accusation that a coach passed him an envelope of money is the most serious of the allegations. I'd be shocked if the NCAA does not investigate that one. There is a five-year statute of limitations on many NCAA violations, but I'd expect that they'd make an exception if it came to light that a coach was paying players. Troy head coach Larry Blakeney is still living with NCAA sanctions after the "Keep it down home, cuz" events more than 20 years ago.

 

     We can't prove or disprove Reddick's statements. However, I can point out a few things. Reddick claims to have been offered a "large sum" of money to sign with Auburn . Reddick says that he did not take the money, but signed with Auburn anyway. Reddick was adamant about his dislike for the process: "people are trying to take advantage of me, and I don’t give anybody any power over me, ever." Why sign with Auburn, then? This sounds contradictory to me. One further note: Reddick applied for a graduate assistant coaching position last year, and was turned down.

 

     We can't disprove statements by Raven Gray about receiving money, but in light of Auburn's plethora of good defensive ends, it's curious. Auburn's had dozens of high-performing defensive ends in the past decade. Raven Gray was injured during his last year of JUCO play, and had surgery on his knee. I cannot imagine a rogue booster spending thousands of bucks on an injured JUCO player at that position. A defensive end with knee problems is a bench-warmer in the SEC. Gray signed in 2008, and was too injured to participate in spring drills. I can't imagine him drawing a whole lot of money during this time.

 

     Chaz Ramsey's Auburn career ended prematurely with a back injury around the time of the 2007 Peach Bowl. He and his family subsequently sued line coach Hugh Nall, and trainer Arnold Gamber, for supposedly ignoring doctor's orders regarding his rehab. During the media investigation, it was revealed that Ramsey himself wasn't necessarily big on following doctor's orders, taking part in a ski trip while he was supposed to be resting his back. The lawsuit was tossed out of court, basically due to lack of evidence. The Ramsey family definitely has an axe to grind with Auburn, as evidenced here.

 

     Stanley McClover was the most loquacious with HBO interviewer Andrea Kremer, though. He said that he was offered cash by boosters from LSU, Ohio State, and Michigan State, in addition to Auburn. We're also supposed to believe that he choose Auburn after partaking of free sex from Ohio State coeds. That's an accusation that goes far beyond Auburn, broadsiding several big-time programs. Some of McClover's story has already been debunked. McClover claimed to have been given $7000 by a booster for the purchase of a 1973 Chevrolet. Junior Rosegreen has countered that he was there when McClover bought the car, and that McClover used his Pell Grant to pay for it.

 

     HBO has officially stated that they never pay for interviews. Andrea Kremer reiterated that policy on the radio this morning, and also said that HBO never gives out advance copies or transcripts of their shows. I had to look no farther than my email inbox to get my copy Tuesday evening. I'm not even a journalist, but I received the press release. There are DVD copies out there, too, one of which was analyzed by Phillip Marshall over at Auburn Undercover. Ron Sanders over at AUC has stated that he has it on good authority that the McClover interview was scripted, and McClover cooperated for compensation.

 

     The question now becomes, what compensation? Well, for one thing, HBO agreed to televise Stanley McClover's Big Brother event back on February 27th. Radio station 97.1 TheFan FM in Columbus is taking it a step farther. They claim that McClover was paid $20,000 by HBO for the interview.

 

     There are few winners in this saga. The Auburn administration is once again in the position of defending themselves from unproven (unprovable?) allegations from questionable sources. Other universities are also tainted by this HBO show. The 4 players who participated may or may not have received a bit of money for going along with it, but that's trivial. What they've done will haunt them long after that bit of cash is gone. The only real winners in this sorry story are HBO, and other tabloid outlets who will likely enjoy a surge of traffic.

 

     There's really little to be done but for the Auburn Family to endure this. We'll have another wave of negative publicity, and we'll survive it. And should the allegations be proven true, Heaven help the guilty. The wrath of the Auburn faithful is no small thing! Just ask David Housel and William Walker... The NCAA may look into it, and without credible evidence, it will remain another perpetually open case like the Cam Newton saga. The real question that I have is this: How badly does this cumulative bad-press stuff damage Auburn recruiting efforts going forward? Only time will tell.

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You guys say I'm crazy...

I said to you guys a while ago that we are purposefully being attacked in the media. They have selected us and are doing everything they can to try and rip us apart and devastate our recruiting. On the other thread, people were talking about Auburn fans burying their heads in the sand. Look, I think they ALL pay the players. Any major school in sports, they pay their players. I’m convinced of that and I truly think the NCAA knows it. I think Auburn fans are also burying their heads not thinking this whole thing is orchestrated. At this point, how is not an orchestrated attack on our beloved institution??? How many more attacks do you need before you realize these new allegations nearly every week are no accident but a true symbol of something bigger that is happening in this whole thing.

I realize you’re all going to say I’m crazy and to stop thinking that way. However, each media attack I see only pushes me further to what I believed at the beginning of the Cam saga. Hell, Bo Jackson smelled the damned rat, why can’t the rest of us? They are trying to destroy us in the public eye and in the media. When the hell are we going to retaliate and destroy them in the public arena. Out of curiosity, did anyone in the show mention something by Alabama? Just curious.

It's Auburn against the world. Good luck world.

by Sparkey on Mar 31, 2011 3:57 AM CDT reply actions  

Very good read Acid...

wish your kind of jounalism would get widely published so that people can get the whole story.

Sparkey, I love your passion, but what are you going to do? Who are you going to destroy, and how, and why? The only sure thing about a pissing match is that everybody gets wet. We are winning, we are getting alot of attention, and we should get used to it if we continue to win.

My pastor just did a sermon entitiled, “When you don’t know what to do, keep doing what you know how to to”. I think the University is handling this the right way (reporting to the NCAA, SEC and not commenting). The team is practicing, life goes on. I, for one, watched one of the other 799 channels on my cable last night, and I plan to block all the HBO channels.

I need a cold shower and a copy of the Auburn Creed

by UglyJoe on Mar 31, 2011 6:01 AM CDT reply actions  

Good read for the most part

Other than this: Your best bet is to keep pushing the “no real evidence” stuff, not attacking these kids character. In law school they tell us to focus on “why we win” in an argument, and attacking the character of your opposite rarely does that.

Second, it is highly unlikely that McClover got a Pell Grant of any kind, much less one for $7000. People with full scholarships usually don’t get Pell Grants, and they have never been for more than $5500.

by elfcrash on Mar 31, 2011 7:56 AM CDT reply actions  

Well, first I must say...

…..I’m no lawyer. I am a parent, and a manager. I have decades of experience in deconstructing folks’ statements. I purposefully left out my observations in that regard. I’m not interested in getting sued for libel over my non-paid part-time hobby.

…..I don’t really need to attack these former players’ character. They’ve done a fine job of that themselves. All I’ve done is connect a few dots. Frankly, I feel sorry for them all. This life is all about who you know, and your relationships with them. The four have burned lots of bridges.

…..The $7000 dollar figure for a 22 year-old GM car prone to rust is interesting. Seems high to me, unless you’re talking about a fully restored Camaro or something.

......Drowning in cool elixir.

by Acid Reign on Mar 31, 2011 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'll take the word of Junior Rosegreen over that of a documented liar.

Junior Rosegreen, a former teammate of McClover said, "Stanley bought that car with his Pell Grant money. I know that for a fact. I was there when he did it." In an interview with AuburnSports.com Junior said, "Stanley is bitter with everybody because he blew $1.2 million at the strip club. He went to the strip club three times a week. He was making it rain with 20-, 10-, 5- and 1-dollar bills and now he’s broke. He shouldn’t get mad at Coach (Tommy) Tuberville and the Auburn Family because he blew his money."
Rosegreen on whether or not HBO compensated McClover for the interview:
"He called me after (HBO) first contacted him and left a message. I then called him back and he told me that Auburn screwed him over and didn’t do anything for him. He said he was going to bash them. He said he was going to put something out there saying they paid him. I said, ‘What are you going to put out there on them?’ He said, ‘I’m going to put it out there that they paid me.’ I said, ‘Stanley, you know they didn’t pay you.’ He said, ‘Well, I’m going to put it out there anyways.’

by PineMtTiger on Mar 31, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Left off last line: Although HBO continues to deny it, McGlover said he got $20,000.00 for the interview. It may have come in the form of sponsorship for his charity but that would still be compensation.

by PineMtTiger on Mar 31, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

He got money,

from HBO, whether it is a direct check to him or his “charity event”.
Anybody that acts like he does is a moron in my book. How the heck do spend money three days a week at a strip club, and turn around and call anything you do a charity event. He is trying to raise more money for the damn strip club.

Come and join me at http://trackemtigers.com

by KoolBell777 on Mar 31, 2011 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Don't even get me started on the morality of strip clubs...

Everybody here would hate me when I got through.

Come and join me at http://trackemtigers.com

by KoolBell777 on Mar 31, 2011 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

LOL...

don’t go besmirching my morality KB….back in the day before marriage the girls at the Cheetah new me all too well, and it was a time in my life that I enjoy looking back on.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Mar 31, 2011 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Cheetah... Kevin Sorbo's favorite place.

It's Auburn against the world. Good luck world.

by Sparkey on Apr 1, 2011 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

He may be a liar

But he can’t have paid for anything more than $5500 with a Pell Grant, because that’s the max you get all year.

If he is such a liar, might he have lied to his friend about the source of his money?

by elfcrash on Mar 31, 2011 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hahaha, on here with more of your shit

You’re on a mission to come after us. To quote Bob Dole on SNL, “I’ve got a message to Teve Torbes…Tuck Off!” In this case, you’re Teve Torbes and I’m Bob Dole.

It's Auburn against the world. Good luck world.

by Sparkey on Apr 1, 2011 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Aww Sparkey

And I thought we had that nice moment a couple weeks back where we actually agreed on something. If you read my posts, you’ll see that I’m actually not attacking Auburn or you fans at all, just trying to point out a factual inaccuracy in the post above.

by elfcrash on Apr 1, 2011 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know Elf, these grants are based on need aren't they? It's a minor point I know,

but seems to me this could have happened. A friend of mine paid for his pilot’s license with his student loan.

by aubgrad on Mar 31, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

As far as I know...

And its based quite a bit on the parents earnings I believe if they claim you as a dependent. Your own if they don’t claim you. I had a roommate get screwed over because her mother still claimed her as a dependent even though she was given virtually nothing, and after a wealthy relative died, what her mother was left made her ineligible for the year.

Nothing is based on any scholarship given through the school.

by KentuckyTiger on Mar 31, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Doesn't matter

The max Pell Grant the Government awards is $5500 for one year. You also have to report any and all scholarships to the government when you apply for these things.

by elfcrash on Mar 31, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

You fill out a FAFSA before

you can get a Pell grant or a lot of scholarships. You do not report scholarships on your FAFSA.

by jimithing78 on Mar 31, 2011 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've filled out a FAFSA for the past 6 years

And you have to report your scholarships on your taxes, which you have to submit along with your FAFSA.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but you still can’t get more than $5500 with a Pell Grant.

by elfcrash on Mar 31, 2011 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes you've said that

a dozen times today. $5,500 is the max.

by jimithing78 on Mar 31, 2011 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Only room and board are taxable

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p970.pdf

Minus the standard deduction = zero taxable income if he doesn’t have other jobs and income. Thus his FAFSA is not affected and he’s eligible for a Pell Grant.

by jimithing78 on Mar 31, 2011 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Still wrong

I’m certified through the IRS’s VITA program to help people with their taxes, and most of the people I help are students at Chapel Hill. As it is income, even if untaxable, you still have to report scholarships to the government. That’s the law.

Thus it does affect your FAFSA, because the government does take into account your income through your taxes. Maybe he still got it anyway, but school scholarship info does affect your financial aid.

by elfcrash on Apr 2, 2011 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Regardless, it seems like a grant

can be tracked, while cash $$ can not. Hopefully, one our great ‘investigative reporters’ will get all over that…..

by Tiger on the mountain on Apr 1, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Also

Until you turn 23 you have to report your parents income and assets even if you are independent. The only exception is if your parents aren’t living or are unknown.

http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/help/fftoc02k.htm

by jimithing78 on Mar 31, 2011 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting

Yesterday before the show aired on HBO i was talking to my friend who played at Georgia in the early 2000s and he said it was very common for players to buy cars (not new) with their pell grants. Since they had free room and board along with food they were able to spend that extra cash on cars. He told me this before I heard jr rosegreen’s remarks.

by AU34 on Mar 31, 2011 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

which

is not against the rules

by AU34 on Mar 31, 2011 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cool

Were they more than $5500 cars?

by elfcrash on Apr 1, 2011 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Give it up alreadyl

Why are you so fixed on this $5500 thing? You know it is possible he did have a little bit of money of his own. A beat up car that he sold for a grand or so. Even poor people have cars sometime. It’s not that hard to come up with the extra cash.

by jimithing78 on Apr 2, 2011 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's an full-time athlete

And his family was super-poor. Where was his supplemental income coming from?

by elfcrash on Apr 2, 2011 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

From what his teammates are saying....

they were always having to either loan him money or pick up his tab when they went out and according to what they are saying that if he did get payments he didn’t spend it when they were around.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 4, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just what I neede to read this morning.

 Thanks Acid. Your piece is chok thru with good stuff. But the quote I like best is …

“It is also worth noting that each year NCAA athletes sign statements assuring that they are aware of the rules and have not received any impermissible benefits. Signing such a document, then later admitting to taking cash demonstrates a fundamental lack of ethics by these players.”
 And further , “It also calls into question any public statement they might make. In short, they’ve branded themselves as liars, and have little credibility left.”

AMEN.

AubTigerman
"The reason you come to Auburn is because of Auburn people.This is a special place, from the coaches all the way to the fans" - Andrew McCain OT

by aubtigerman on Mar 31, 2011 8:14 AM CDT reply actions  

I love me some Acid Reign in the morning!

I have been in absolute funk about this. Mad at the players. Mad at the boosters, who may or may not be contributing to this. Just mad! Pull it together people!

After thinking about it overnight, I do believe that HBO was pushing an anti-NCAA agenda. They should have focused on bball recruitment, since most of NCAA revenue comes from bball. Just sayin’. Despite the fact that they highlighted Auburn players was merely a means to an end. That said, I was PISSED seeing that picture of the car. How could McClover even suggest such a thing?? It smacks SMU and is a huge black eye. Worse? Reddick claiming that a freakin’ COACH gave him an envelope of $$. Are you kidding me? It sounds condemable, but why would a coach risk something like that w/ an obviously disgruntled player. What? Reddick was such a special OLineman that losing him would be the worst thing that could happen to AU football? You have got to be kidding me!!!

I think that I just riled myself up again, off to find some valium…..

by Tiger on the mountain on Mar 31, 2011 9:01 AM CDT reply actions  

It's pretty obvious what's happening here

Alabama boosters and Michigan boosters are joining forces to take apart their biggest rivals. Why else would he name LSU, Michigan State, and Ohio State?!

/not serious

Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions

by jd is legend on Mar 31, 2011 10:37 AM CDT reply actions  

Thanks to Andy Bitter for this...

Jay Jacobs and Dr. Gogue released these statements..
Director of Athletics Jay Jacobs:

"We are aware that four former football players have made allegations against Auburn. While HBO confirmed to us they have no proof that any of these claims are true, we contacted both the NCAA and Southeastern Conference as soon as these allegations surfaced. We have engaged outside counsel to investigate this matter and will spare no resources to find the truth."

Auburn President Dr. Jay Gogue:

"As a university president, there are several things you want from the athletics department. One of them is playing by the rules, and Jay Jacobs and the athletics department are committed to that priority. They will investigate these allegations thoroughly and completely."

Come and join me at http://trackemtigers.com

by KoolBell777 on Mar 31, 2011 11:19 AM CDT reply actions  

How 'bout we cut to the chase?

I noticed above, morality was brought up in one post, so I was just wondering if anyone here honestly believes Bobby Lowder (Mr. Morality himself) has ever been responsible for paying an AU recruit?

A simple yes or no answer will do fine, Thanks.

by GonzoHog on Mar 31, 2011 11:33 AM CDT reply actions  

Well said, aubgrad.

Let me also add for anyone else lurking out there:

We do not keep up with the comings and goings of Bobby Lowder. I have no idea what he had for lunch today or when he wiped his ass last. Sorry. He makes most of us sick to our stomaches—thank you so much for asking.

by Tiger on the mountain on Mar 31, 2011 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

What does it matter??

It is not condoned. You are a blithering fool if you think Arkansas doesn’t have rogue boosters, or boosters that wield power and influence over your program like Lowder did.

And as for talking about morality….Really? How about Bobby Petrino and Nolan Richardson??…..For gods sake…zip up your pants, your hypocrisy is showing.

Col.Angus may be rough, Col.Angus may not smell like a bed of roses, but deep down Col.Angus is very sweet. If I overstay my welcome, just tap me on the head!!

by Col.Angus on Mar 31, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

how is this unsubstantiated comment any different from the information flying around plaguing the CFB world?

that “simple yes or no” question is as pathetic as the HBP show…

You got proof Gonzo? if not, shut your stupid pie.

you do it and you wipe it up.

by buddy Ro on Mar 31, 2011 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Full disclosure

First, I am an Alabama fan, but I’m not here to troll or anything of that nature, just to speak my opinion. I think that it’s crazy that schools can be hammered for things rogue boosters do, sometimes without the knowledge of the athletic department. Of course, there are some instances where the program is fully aware of the booster’s actions, but sometimes I legitimately believe they are not.

I also have a somewhat related question. With the whole Albert Means thing, ‘Bama got hammered by the NCAA. How is what the Miss. St. booster did in the Newton case any different? I was young when the Means thing occurred, so I don’t know all of the details, but all of the Newton investigation has been focused on AU, with no proof of wrongdoing, when a Miss. St. booster started the entire deal. Doesn’t make much sense to me. Any insight would be appreciated.

by tylerj19 on Mar 31, 2011 5:02 PM CDT reply actions  

Well truthfully....

there are alot of similarities between the Albert Means thing and the MSU/ Cam Newton thing….and it is because of those similarities that Cam was eligible to play at AU…first Cam reportedly had no knowledge of what his father and Bill Bell/John Bond were up to just as Albert Means had no knowledge that his HS coach was being paid to have Albert sign with Bama which subsequently made Albert Means ineligible to play at Bama which is why he played for Memphis rather than Bama and why Cam was eligible to play at AU but would have been ineligible at MSU.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Mar 31, 2011 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right

I am not questioning Cam’s eligibility at Auburn. I am wondering why Miss. St. is not getting into any trouble because of their booster’s actions, just as Bama got hammered because of our booster’s in the Means case.

by tylerj19 on Mar 31, 2011 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure the NCAA investigation of MSU and their boosters....

possible improprieties is still ongoing. I will be surprised if there are not at least some sanctions coming MSU’s way even if only a slap on the wrist and limited access to the program for Bond and Bell. But as to the difference……the money changed hands in the Albert Means case….purportedly it wasn’t in this instance. But any contact between boosters and recruits or recruits familys or representitives is an NCAA infraction.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Mar 31, 2011 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

OK

Like I said, I was young when the Means thing occurred, so I didn’t know all of the details. As long as MSU gets something remotely resembling justice, it’ll be ok. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

by tylerj19 on Mar 31, 2011 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rouge Booster? Logan Young wasn't no steekin' Bammer Rouge Booster

Logan Young and his daddy were bag-men for Paul W. Bryant long before you were born.

While you’re unraveling life’s mysteries in Bammerville history you might solve how the “Bloodiest crime scene in the history of the Memphis Police Department” produced the most mysterious “death from natural causes” ever heard of on this planet.

click here: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2405013

P.S. There was there, there in the Albert Means cause …. and UAT is lucky as hell they didn’t get the death penalty in its aftermath.

P.P.S. There was no there, there in the Cecil Newton/MSU case. And, there is no there, there in this HBO hit piece. Nicky Saban said so himself. You bammers are just going to have to live with it.

by xotus on Mar 31, 2011 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok

I’m not sure I exactly understand what you are saying here, but I’m not over here calling for the NCAA to come down on Auburn for anything. I was simply asking for help in understanding a situation that I didn’t completely understand. I’m not claiming “holier than thou”, and if ‘Bama were to do something against NCAA rules then I would have no problem with the program getting what it deserved. As far as I’m concerned, Auburn is innocent until proven guilty.

As far as the HBO piece is concerned, there is no proof that the four players got paid, and frankly I don’t care if they did or not. The entire reason of my posting was to get help understanding the difference in the Means case and the actions of Bell/Bond.

by tylerj19 on Mar 31, 2011 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

calm yourself

he’s being respectful. don’t make us all look like lunatics waiting to yell at the first alabama fan we see.

I'm an Auburn fan because I go to Auburn. You're a Bama fan because you went to Walmart.
Auburn Tigers 2010 National Champions

by FlyAuburn13 on Mar 31, 2011 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Besides thats my job.

:-)

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Mar 31, 2011 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

HEY...

I also do that too damnit. :-D

It's Auburn against the world. Good luck world.

by Sparkey on Apr 1, 2011 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?
I’m an Auburn fan because I go to Auburn. You’re a Bama fan because you went to Walmart.
Auburn Tigers 2010 National Champions

Physician, calm thyself, nobody’s talking to you.

by xotus on Apr 1, 2011 7:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

the signature is good natured ribbing

i’m just suggesting that you don’t go off on someone who was genuinely just asking a question.

I'm an Auburn fan because I go to Auburn. You're a Bama fan because you went to Walmart.
Auburn Tigers 2010 National Champions

by FlyAuburn13 on Apr 1, 2011 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good read Acid.......

the more I hear these guys team mates disputing the story the more I feel that HBO has gone the tabloid route and has no more interest in the truth than OJ Simpson.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Mar 31, 2011 5:14 PM CDT reply actions  

I am very thankful

for the 30 players coming forward to dispute these allegations. Now is not the time for folks to sit on their hands. These 30 or so players are putting their reputations on the line to speak up for Auburn and I know we all appreciate it.

WAR EAGLE!

by AuburnAlum05 on Mar 31, 2011 8:01 PM CDT reply actions  

Say it loud and proud!

WAR EAGLE!

Come and join me at http://trackemtigers.com

by KoolBell777 on Mar 31, 2011 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Somebody needs to point out to SBnation hack Holly Anderson....

that a revelation is a disclosure of the truth and that this is far from being substatiated therefore it can only be an allegation not a revelation….but she wouldn’t know about that because she’s a big Barry White looking Motherfu…..ooh sorry I don’t really know what she looks like but I keep picturing a a big fat zatch with a mullet and mustache.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Mar 31, 2011 8:39 PM CDT reply actions  

Here is a picture

http://www.sbnation.com/users/Holly%20Anderson

"Be polite to everyone you meet, but be prepared to kill anyone"-tc16cav

by otisnixon'sparty on Mar 31, 2011 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

No mustache or mullet which takes my image of the lumberjack chick away....

of course we have all seen the girl in the sports car that looked nice until she started getting out of the sports car and she just kept on getting out….either way my statement is still correct concerning the difference between a revelation and an allegation.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 1, 2011 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lol

wasn’t going to touch that part, just saw that comment and thought you might want to see a picture, I figured you would have something amusing to say.

"Be polite to everyone you meet, but be prepared to kill anyone"-tc16cav

by otisnixon'sparty on Apr 1, 2011 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

You only think it's funny because you have seen "that" girl before...

as have we all….aught to be a law against it….false advertising or something.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 1, 2011 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

umm...

hopefully not more than one

"Be polite to everyone you meet, but be prepared to kill anyone"-tc16cav

by otisnixon'sparty on Apr 1, 2011 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

T. Kyle King is as obnoxious as Pete Holiday...

he’s a pompous pr*ck.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 2, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Paging WEA

to defend Holiday’s honor….

T.Kyle King is the most obnoxious blog princess out there….SMU, my arse

by Tiger on the mountain on Apr 4, 2011 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

For all the comments about Pell Grants earlier

everyone that said that someone on athletic scholarship is eligible for a Pell Grant still? If this is true, that is absurd. There is no way someone on a full scholarship, whether academic or athletic, should qualify for those. If they need/want more money, let them take out a Stafford loan.

"Be polite to everyone you meet, but be prepared to kill anyone"-tc16cav

by otisnixon'sparty on Mar 31, 2011 11:51 PM CDT reply actions  

Write your congressman.....

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 1, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Meh

drop in the bucket compared to other things that need reform… still doesn’t seem right though. I wish there was a top 10 list somewhere of ridiculous things athletes have done with those grants over the years, I bet there is some seriously awesome stories there.

"Be polite to everyone you meet, but be prepared to kill anyone"-tc16cav

by otisnixon'sparty on Apr 1, 2011 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree....

my sarcasm font is a little too inconspicuous.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 1, 2011 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't take you seriously

just wasn’t sure if that was “good-natured” or more “quit your damn bitching!”

"Be polite to everyone you meet, but be prepared to kill anyone"-tc16cav

by otisnixon'sparty on Apr 1, 2011 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

It is a bit embarrassing seeing AU fans attack, attack, and attack

the people and completely ignore the actual accusations

To me and I think every non-AU fans, it is your way of admitting that these allegations are true

by TaxedDawg on Apr 1, 2011 10:38 PM CDT reply actions  

How about you take the plank out of your eye

Before you start judging us…I think you might want to think your Dawg fans attacking everyone blaming everybody else for your season in 2010.

It's Auburn against the world. Good luck world.

by Sparkey on Apr 2, 2011 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sparkey- you took the bait

You responded to an implied question with an attack. You might think the question is unfair (or anything else), but attacking here just looks like the very deflection you’ve been acused of. Right?

It’s too easy for me now to say “The 2010 Dawgs lost 7 games because we stunk.” Which is true. Okay, now that we’ve got that admission out there, how do you answer TaxedDawg?

Or, if not our generous quantity of losses, what’s the plank in UGA’s eye?

by first and thom on Apr 4, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

UGA fans generally have a plank in their eye

Oh how I wish we could spray them with water hoses every time they come down to Auburn. Your plank (currently) is how you whined and whined about Fairley. Damn, you guys just couldn’t give it up could you? No it’s not a deflection-it’s anger after being attacked so much. I’ve said before these constant stream of attacks are done in an orchestrated way. You really think that Auburn is the only one that MIGHT have that whole thing? Really?

It's Auburn against the world. Good luck world.

by Sparkey on Apr 5, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not sure I see the connection

but that’s cool. I don’t blame Fairely for our season, or even our loss to you this year – I blame him for a few hits that crossed the line. But that didn’t change the outcome of the game (or any other). I don’t see how that’s a plank in my eye at all.

by first and thom on Apr 5, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

One......count it one cheap shot does not make one a cheap shot artist.....

the rest of the hits were clean and aggressive the way they should be.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 5, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

We'll leave a gray area on the hit that hurt Murray's knee.

Also – not all cheap shots are created equal. But I don’t want to rehash the specifics. The point is that, even if Fairley were 10x worse than even the most rabid UGA partisan thinks he is, it doesn’t change the outcome of the game. Where’s the plank in my eye?

by first and thom on Apr 5, 2011 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think there is even a gray area on the hit on Murrays knee...

the UGA player altered Fairly’s path while Fairly was airborne….it was an unfortunate hit but not dirty in the least. As to anyother hit in the season that people were whining about they usually were mad because Fairly used the Supplex technique a.k.a piledriving their QB….it’s funny but last year as N. Suh for Nebraska was using the same technique he was lauded as a physical but fair player.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 5, 2011 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I never claimed you had any such obstructions in your eye...

that was sparkey….I just want to point out that one aggressive mistake albeit a bad one does not make a player dirty.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 5, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

And I'm not the one who brought up Fairely

And the video of the hit that injured Murray is here. Start at 1:04. Fairley was not hit in the air but pushed off after and against the block.

It’s not that big of a deal. I ain’t mad, and I ain’t whining. Sparkey brought up Fairley, so I responded (graciously, I thought) and you challenged me on it. I think the evidence lets me stand up to that challenge, but – even if it doesn’t – the point of the discussion is whether I’m blinded by a plank in my eye. Whether Nick Fairley had one or two unsportsmanlike hits does not seem to bear on that question at all.

I’ve never complained about the slams. Those are legal.

Maybe one day I’ll saddle up to your establishment and we can discuss the physics involved as people and not merely screennames.

by first and thom on Apr 6, 2011 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

I do take the accusations seriously....

but I also have to look at who is making the accusations and why….and I also am very tired of the witch hunt mentality of the so called journalist……if something can’t be proven or all you have is “he said she said” why report it and at the very least why didn’t they air the myriad of players who say it’s all bunk? If you think that’s good jounalism then you are as skewed as they are.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 2, 2011 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

and you can add to that...

that I don’t give a good GD whether it embarrasses you or not….if you had serious doubts about something of this nature being said about your alma matre you would defend it as vigorously.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 2, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Don't be too sure.

Let me start by saying that I have no idea if the Cam Newton or HBO 4 allegations are true. For present purposes, let’s just say that we don’t know.

The Auburn fanbase has (largely) responded to these accusations by circling the wagons and protecting the coaches and program. But what if the program is (or was) breaking the rules? What if the enemy was inside, not outside? In that case “defending” the school means defending the university against those within the program who would tarnish or betray it.

I would be impressed if Auburn came out saying that it stands completely behind its coach and program and is confident that all will be cleared of all wrongdoing. However, serious allegations call for serious investigations and the school is commited to both the NCAA regulations and maintaining the honor of a proud institution. All involved recognize that their jobs depend not only on total and forthright compliance with the investigations, but they also know that Auburn has no place for any who would do the acts alleged. The school will make its decisions based not on the whims of rumor, but after a thorough analysis of all of the facts.

I realize that it’s easier to call someone an enemy than to show that they are a liar, but – in my view – the current defense focuses a lot of the first and not very much on the second. What do you think?

by first and thom on Apr 4, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Let me also add that I hope UGA would respond this way...

…which is how I meant to start my comment. /can’tfixstoopid

by first and thom on Apr 4, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

I can only speak for myself, but if there is trash at Auburn,

I want it taken out. That said, I can’t put a lot of faith in individuals that levy such big accusations and then don’t offer any proof to back it up. And we are supposed to take these people at their word? Please. (I am not saying that we should all go about our business as if nothing has happened; this situation really needs to be looked at and boosters need to be put on Red Freakin’ Alert, ie any toe out of line and their season tickets or what-have-you’s get pulled.) Constantly having to endure unsubstantiated allegations either results in everyone jumping ship or everyone circling the wagons. You know which reaction you are seeing right now.

by Tiger on the mountain on Apr 4, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

that's right

I would think that Auburn could get ahead of this stuff by taking some aggressive action. Otherwise, there seems to be a real danger of death by 1,000 cuts.

Good luck with the offseason.

by first and thom on Apr 4, 2011 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

The problem with all of this is that they "the media".....

have not found anyone or anything to substantiate any of the claims and in HBO’s case they went looking for the accusations….and when they did they could only find four former players all with an axe to grind against AU. Now, while the players in question do have a motive to stick it to AU and all seemingly without a bit of proof, I realize that this doesn’t make them liars but in my mind there is as much or more reason to doubt their story as there is to believe it. This is not an uncommon phenomenon in history….but we should be far past the kind of hysteria that caused the “Inquisition” or the many instances of “witch trials” shouldn’t we….it is still innocent until proven guilty in this country last time I looked and I don’t think there has been even one iota of substantiable fact presented

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 4, 2011 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a legal construct

And a darn important one, too. But it’s not the rule by which most of us live our lives. When a jury finds a defendant guilty, we deem it okay to inflict punishment against a criminal, but it’s not like the criminal hadn’t done anything wrong until the jury rendered a verdict.

Whatever happened happened. I think we should now be investigating it and try to withhold judment one way or the other until we know more about what happened. If wrongdoing took place, the folks who did it presumably took care to cover their tracks. Paying players is not exactly a crime of passion, and it is probably done by people with the means and the knowledge to cover their tracks. This will go slow, and even slower because the NCAA thinks that glaciers are hasty.

The truth will out, and I sincerely hope the best for Auburn.

by first and thom on Apr 4, 2011 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

So you have a problem with AU defending itself and disputing unsubstantiated allegations...

but not with people making a big hoo-ha by making unsubstantiated allegations.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 4, 2011 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not at all.

I haven’t said that, and I don’t belive it. Sorry if I have given the wrong impression.

I noted that the Auburn fanbase has taken a program-centered view of “defending Auburn.” It is completely true that all allegations are unsubstantiated because they have not been conclusively proven to be true with bank records or pictures or DNA. But somebody’s word is proof – even if it’s weak proof. It’s worth looking into. Or, put another way, the first piece of evidence is always unsubstantiated. Nobody has come forward with the proof of what happened, one way or the other.

Look, like I said, I don’t know what happened and I am trying to figure it out. I’m not trying to suggest that Auburn did anything wrong. What interests me now is the way that the Auburn fanbase is treating the allegations.

by first and thom on Apr 4, 2011 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

What happened is that HBO singled out our program.....

and found 4 disgruntled players to say what they were looking for someone to say….does that mean that the allegations have no truth to them? No absolutely not, however, the fact that HBO chose to first omit any footage of others disputing this (and there were many), and the fact that regardless of how ambiguous the details of the four players stories were, and the fact that HBO chose to air the “special” instead of trying to substantiate any of the claims lends credence to the belief that they had an agenda and cared little for the truth.

I don't troll so I reserve the right to berate trolls as I see fit.

Just so you know I won't forget.....LSU Jonno predicted we would finish 5th in the west in '11.

by Todd92 on Apr 4, 2011 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's fair

HBO’s program was editorial – not straight news – so it’s not fair to expect equal time to opposing viewpoints. However, Real Sports should have at least mentioned the players who denied the allegations.

by first and thom on Apr 5, 2011 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Your first non anti Auburn sentiment.

It hurt didn’t it?

It's Auburn against the world. Good luck world.

by Sparkey on Apr 5, 2011 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm just as anti-Auburn as always, Sparkey...

…but I’m just being a little anti-HBO, too. ;-)

by first and thom on Apr 5, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks said it better than I can.

I’m simply too angry about it to express myself properly anymore.

It's Auburn against the world. Good luck world.

by Sparkey on Apr 5, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Auburn University has hired "outside counsel" to investigate according to Jay Jacobs...

The HBO special is not being taken lightly, and the truth is being endeavored as we speak.

Come and join me at http://trackemtigers.com

by KoolBell777 on Apr 5, 2011 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

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